Tony's sexuality - Discussion

[beautybecks.livejournal.com]

Hi y'all,

Just wanted to start a little healthy discussion/debate about Tony's sexuality. Do you think he is Tim-sexual, bi-sexual, homosexual, pan-sexual etc? How do you factor his on-screen relations in regards to his sexuality, particularly Jeanne Benoit?

Personally, I see Tony as being very gay and all his talk of women is over-compensating. His infactuation with Tim has been there since the very beginning. I see him being mostly celibate and having slept with women in his past until he realised he was gay and sort of stopped the sex all together. Alas, the sexual frustration he gets from working round Tim day in and day out has driven him into the arms of a few men, but he tries to forget about that. For me, the forced relationship with Jeanne Benoit actually helped sell him as gay to me, he may have fallen in love with her eventually but I think a part of that was acting and sex, sex which he was reluctant about to begin with. It was supposed to be a fake relationship to begin with but I think that can be extended to include the fact it was fake because he is gay. Cole Porter married and loved his wife but that didn't make him any less gay.

What are your thoughts?

Comments

[burnphone.livejournal.com]

My views on Tony are slightly different. I see him as bi but I'm not convinced he knows it himself. I can imagine that he's always had feelings for men but pushed them aside. We know how much he wants his fathers approval and being gay probably wouldn't have help with that plus he likes women too. A lot. So it's not so hard to ignore anyway. He's probably decided it was all an adolescent phase and he chooses to ignore the gay porn on his hard drive.

I think his excessive womanizing (that sounds harsh, I don't mean it badly) is probably due to his confusion but I do think he truly was attracted to Jeanne and did come to love her. He was hesitant because he was worried about hurting her feelings and that's exactly why I think Tim would always have to make the first move (even if Tony has engineered it accidentally on purpose) because Tony would be too scared to risk their relationship on what might be a one time thing for him.

[beautybecks.livejournal.com]

Hmm, interesting. I know this sounds really cruel but I've never got the impression Tony is actually aware of other people's feelings. That he's a man of action rather than thoughts/feelings, but that could all be an act.

Tony scared is a new concept for me but I find it intriguing, especially the one time thing. Hmmm, curiouser and curiouser. Thanks for sharing your thoughts x

[rainbow-goddess.livejournal.com]

I believe that Tony thinks he is straight, and maybe tries to convince himself that he is straight. I don't think he's exclusively gay, but he definitely has some same-sex attraction going on and is at the very least bisexual. I think he appreciates beautiful women, but possibly more in an aesthetic manner rather than a sexual manner. He might try to convince himself that he wants to have sex with them, but the fact that we haven't seen him go on a second date with anyone but Jeanne -- and she was an assignment -- leads me to wonder why.

With Tim, he's probably been fighting his attraction since Day 1. He probably tells himself that it's inappropriate due to the fact that they work together, or he tells himself that he couldn't possibly be attracted to Probie/McGeek/whatever he calls him, or he tells himself that duh, Timmy is a GUY, and Tony doesn't do guys (yeah right.)

[beautybecks.livejournal.com]

I agree with most of your comments, except for the fact Tony codes gay to me. I can see him being asthetically attracted to women, makes it easier to drool over them, but when it comes to intimacy and sex, a woman's body is too soft, smells too sweet, too fragile, and even if it's not fragile it still scares him (like Ziva).

I don't think Tim is his usual type, he's not tanned or muscular but he smells right and he feels right, not that he's ever really got to feel him and he repeatedly tells himself that he doesn't want to feel Tim like that anyway.

Thanks so much for taking the time to write out your thoughts. It's interesting to read and also helps me understand my own. Thanks again :)

[jack-infinitude.livejournal.com]

Tony is obviously Tim-sexual. :D

But seriously, I think that Tony is bisexual, while leaning heavily to the hetero side. It's what he's comfortable with, he knows how to handle women. We're pretty uncomplicated for him so long as we don't expect too much out of him.

When it comes to Jeanne, I'm always hesitant to make any kind of pronouncement about Tony's personality/sexuality. Nothing about the relationship was real, except his love, which came about under forced circumstances. (Huh, maybe I could argue that he bonded with Jeanne out of necessity? Like Stockholm's except not as horrifying.) So anything that came out under Jeanne's influence should always be taken with a grain of salt, I think.

It's also possible that part of his reluctance with Jeanne came from his love/attraction/loyalty to Tim. If he had a little voice in the back of his head saying You're hurting Tim, you're hurting Tim, every time he bent down for a hug or a kiss, it would make sense that he was dragging his feet on prostituting himself to Jeanne. (Have I mentioned that I'm glad that Jenny is dead? Because I'm really glad that bitch is dead.)

[beautybecks.livejournal.com]

Hmm, I kind of forgot about Jenny. I actually liked her, I can even forgive what she put Tony through because the Frog was her white whale. She did offer Tony his own team though, she offered him an out with Jeanne but he never took it (because he didn't want to leave Tim)

Tony is so obviously Tim-sexual, I have difficulty thinking of him with anybody else. I find it interesting to see how everybody who comments thinks he is bi-sexual, even more straight than gay. Still, I can't see it.

[jack-infinitude.livejournal.com]

Obviously YMMV when it comes to Jenny. She trips too many of my thingamadoogies (it's a scientific term!) for me to like her. I'd forgotten that she offered Tony his own team.

Its hard for me to see Tony as purely gay, because Tim is the only man that he reacts so strongly to. (Unless we want to get into Gibbs/DiNozzo, which I don't.) He doesn't flirt with any other men, unless it links back to Tim somehow (as we saw with McCaden.) The usual Tonytage is something like "GIRLSGIRLSGIRLSGIRLSGIRLSTimmy! look at me Timmy look at me look at me look at me!GIRLSGIRLSGIRLSGIRLSGIRLSGIRLSGIRLSGIRLSTimmyyyyy, you're not looking at me! Look at me look at me look at me," especially in the beginning. He does have a genuine interest in women, which we have to take into account, though I would definitely agree that it's become little more than a smokescreen these days.

[burnphone.livejournal.com]

"GIRLSGIRLSGIRLSGIRLSGIRLSTimmy! look at me Timmy look at me look at me look at me!GIRLSGIRLSGIRLSGIRLSGIRLSGIRLSGIRLSGIRLSTimmyyyyy, you're not looking at me! Look at me look at me look at me,"

Love it :D

[jack-infinitude.livejournal.com]

He just sort of dug a hole in himself and crawled in, hoping that visions of a pouty-lipped probie wouldn't follow until he could forget about everything. Oh my fucking God, THIS so much. Tony walls away the things that trouble him, he always has, and the fact that McGee gets to him so much... Yeah, he's a big fan of Denial.

I could do a whole essay on the Jeanne situation, and just what the hell Tony was doing with it. And yeah, its definitely fucked up.

(My Tonytage [like a montage but so much better because it's TONY, hello] is happy to have been of service!)

[dgcatanisiri.livejournal.com]

There was definitely Italian food involved. There just HAD to be.

DiNozzo DeNial makes the most sense to me - Tony hides from his feelings. Look how long it took him to say 'I love you' to Jeanne and that was an assignment. Especially when you throw in a dash of societal homophobia, it becomes far easier for Tony (who is still insecure of himself) to retreat from someone who so clearly presses all of his buttons AND is confident in himself like our Timmy, who has visibly become more and more accepting of who HE is over the course of the show. In the face of someone who is so visibly self-confident, Tony retreats to immaturity and veiled innuendo to express how much he wants to get into Timmy's pants (and heart). And Tim indulges him in his game, but that's got something to do with Tim's own vulnerabilities and fears that maybe Tony isn't actually interested in him that way because Tim's only managed to build this self-confidence recently, so if he were to try to take it too far and learn that Tony actually doesn't want a relationship, it would probably destroy him, because here's Tony, the kind of guy who surfacely resembles the guys picked on Tim most of his life, who is interested in him, the McGeek, and it would be one more time that the bullies managed to get one on him, only this time taking away the happiness that he has workedso hard to gain (because not only would he lose his self-confidence, he'd probably have to leave the team, if not NCIS completely because he couldn't take being around that type of Tony). So they both play the game, neither one willing to take that step to the next level because they're comfortable where they are.

I liked Jenny, even her yen for getting the Frog putting our McNozzo at risk, because the whole white whale thing made her human, and I like it when the people on my TV are portrayed as being flawed, not just perfect little automatons. I just wish there had been a little more done that played her with the other members of the team instead of just Gibbs and Tony. Even her friendship with Ziva was fairly underplayed.

[dgcatanisiri.livejournal.com]

My analysis of Tim actually is due to self-projection on my part, since McGee started out as someone very much like who I am right now and... Yeah, let's just say Tony'd be my type as well.

And you can really see all that in their relationship, in their back and forth. The teasing nicknames that even now Tony keeps adding to the list of is one of the big things, I think. Tony not being able to pick and stick to just one nickname for him is Tony expressing his inability to openly express his feeling for Tim, while McGee basks in the fact that this guy so like the people who tormented him is clearly crushing on him, but not saying anything because of that big pounding 'what if'.

At least that's this amateur psychologist's appraisal.

[im-miss-barbara.livejournal.com]

So much win for the tim-sexual comment!

[snowglow1275.livejournal.com]

I dislike assigning something like that in strict terms; sexuality is fluid and things change. I also dislike the term bisexual because of the inherent forced dichotomy in the term. I suppose the closest term I can come up with for Tony is pansexual. He's a live and let live kind of guy and when it comes to sex it's all good. Girls are easy and convenient for him, we know his uncle, and probably father, taught him a lot of his womanizing ways so he plays it safe and sticks to what he knows. I think it probably took a while for him to realize that he was attracted to men, as well, and that he's actually alright with that. I'm sure there was a freak out in there somewhere. As for now, he's comfortable in certain social situations and doesn't like to be uncomfortable, and he never got comfortable with the social rules involved with hitting on guys (beyond clubs and such) so he just sticks to easy one night stands. I think before Tim there probably wasn't really anyone he ever wanted for more than the one night or so. There's friends and there's sex and he was happy keeping them separate. Yeah, he wanted Tim but they had to work together he's off limits, except Tony still wants him and that confuses the fuck out of him. I think Jeanne was a kind of test drive; it was uncomfortable and unwanted at first but he found out he was capable of having a relationship. (I'm gonna go with the semi-stockholm thing, too, as far as actually being in love.) After Jeanne Tony had to sort out his feelings but in my personal canon they got together sometime around then. Tony still has trouble accepting that he wants more than sex from Tim but he's happy and he figures if it works why mess with it?

EDIT: Having said this I think its important to say I think Tony self-identifies as straight. Like any trait or title there are internalized social expectations that go along with it. To most people 'gay' is more than just a preference in sexual partners, it also allows for interpretation of behavior. True, you can be Jewish without being religious but it is assumed that you follow certain cultural mores. Same goes for being gay, bi, or straight. Calling oneself gay is likely to be reflective of a small amount of culture as well as sexuality. I cannot see Tony actively expressing himself in any way other than 'straight', regardless of his choice in partner, mostly because this is what he is comfortable with. For all his talk his personal life is likely a very stable, and elaborate, construction.

I think I'm done.

[beautybecks.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think Tony identifies himself as straight too, despite being head over heels in love with Tim, although I'm not sure he recognises and identifies that feeling. I like the idea of Jeanne/Tony being the catalyst for Tim/Tony, to move out of a fake relationship and into a real one. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

[canspy.livejournal.com]

Sexually, one of my favourite reads on Tony is that he thinks he's a big toppy alpha male, but he's intrigued by the possibility of Tim taking a bit of that control away from him for awhile. ;D

As for whether he identifies as gay or straight, I honestly don't think he's ever sat down and put a name to things. Labels have worked for him for most of his life so he's not about to reject them as too confining so he doesn't bother fiddling with them.

[beautybecks.livejournal.com]

Nice image, I like the idea of Tony trusting Tim so much that he'd actually allow Tim to make him vulnerable (sensory deprivation, tying his arms etc)

Tony shouldn't have to put a label on his sexuality, in real life I don't think anybody should have to. Hmm, thanks for your thoughts :)

[canspy.livejournal.com]

Do you think there's anything in his past that would freak him out about that? I know he and Tim were knocked around a lot when they rescued Ziva...

[beautybecks.livejournal.com]

Ah, I hadn't thought of that. I've invented a few fictional reasons why Tim would freak out but I never thought about it within the actual show and never thought about it in regards to Tony. As for having hands tied or sensory deprivation, I think someone could be coaxed through it, even if it was their trigger because the partner can let their presence be known. I can't see Tim ever pushing Tony to do something he doesn't want to do but I can see Tony doing it, trying to prove something to himself. Hmmm.....

[subway-silence.livejournal.com]

I always liked the theory that nobody is a 100% straight or gay (Kinsey scale, I think?), and Tony is no different in my mind. You fall in love with a person, not with a gender. I'm not sure if Tony ever really, truly loved Jeanne. It was more the idea of a some what normal life, settling down, starting a family. He cared for her, but in love? I don't know. The more I think about it, the more I realise how messed up he became from that assignment. And the more I disliked how Jenny got him involved in it.

I think Tony is a pretty traditional guy when it comes to views on family and love. Not that he would dissaprove of other people's choices, but he has trouble seeing himself in a different setting than the typical man + woman = 2.1 childeren. Untill he realises that he feels something for Tim that isn't just colleagues, friends, or brotherly affection. He's probably been attracted towards guys before, but never did anything with it, because it didn't fit in with the picture he had of himself.

[beautybecks.livejournal.com]

The Kinsey scale does suggest that some people are 100% gay, others are 100% straight but that most of the population is somewhere inbetween. There is a difference between sexuality and love but I see your point. I think maybe the reason he codes gay for me is because I can't see him as sexually attracted to anybody apart from Tim and there was always feelings along with that attraction.

Interesting thoughts, thanks for sharing.

[im-miss-barbara.livejournal.com]

First: Tim-sexual xD Roflmao.

I don't Tony is gay, or bi, or straight or whatever. He is just Tony. When it comes to physical attraction, Tony loves everyone and everything.

When it comes to feelings things are a little bit more difficult, experience tells him that things like relations and everything never end wel. Than he gets forced in the whole Jeanne things and well, that is also one bit crap.

After the whole Jeanne fiasco Tony finds that Tim helps him trough his problems by just showing up, and after a few weeks he realizes that he is head over heels in love with him, and what scares him the most is that what he felt for Jeanne was nothing compared to what he feels for Tim. So when Jeanne shows up during internal affairs he can tell her that none of it was real.

Rigth then he realizes that what ever he feels for Tim, he can't ignore it anymore. He goes over to his house that evening and kisses him. He leaves after that, leaving the ball in Tim's court. He tries to act all cool about it the next day, but he is terrified that Tim blows his off.

Well we all now what happens next! (H-- M----- S--)

[beautybecks.livejournal.com]

Nice scenario. I do think Tony's feelings for Tim are scarily intense, especially compared to what he felt for Jeanne. I've said it before but I love Jeanne/Tony being the catalyst for Tony/Tim.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts x

[jack-infinitude.livejournal.com]

"TIM-SEXUAL" IS AWESOME, OKAY? OKAY :D

[schtroumph-c.livejournal.com]

Like jack_infinitude, I see Tony as bi leaning toward straight. He likes women, and I think he really loved Jeanne, or at least liked her a lot. I think he always wondered what would have happened if they met in another way, how many possible love stories he missed because he run away when it started being serious (an option he didn't have there). I think even today, he still has moments wondering where he would be in his life if everything in his relationship with Jeanne, from the meeting to the break-up, was lead by their own decisions and not someone else. But he'll never know, and I'm sure it still bother him.

Actually, I'd like her to come back, see her getting married or close to. It'll break his heart, but in a good way. Seeing her moving on, seeing that they weren't meant to be, seeing that he didn't hurt at the point her life is destroyed, he'll be able to heal correctly this time.

I think he had crushes on men, recognize some, denies other. I'm not sure if he did something with a man before, but if he did, it was nothing serious or big. I can actually see the interest in Gibbs, but it constantly moved between crush and father figure, and I honestly think that at some point, he consider the crush as hero worship, and getting away from it while seeing Gibbs more as a human being, keeping only the respect and the father figure.

As for his feelings for Tim, I think he was fascinated without understanding why since the first day, in two moments: one when McGee asked to talk to a woman for the investigation, saying she wasn't his type when Tony told him he wasn't allowed to ask her out, followed by being impressed when he got the news they needed (who left his job recently), and the other moment after the "I went with mom." Tony blocked on the tattoo, on the place where the tattoo was, and the implications. How many normal, boring, vanilla, boys scout guys go and get a tat on their ass just to please a girl they barely talked to on a phone?

And the fascination never left, as the need to get his attention, and to be sure McGee was laughing at his jokes, etc.... I think Tony realised he was crushing on him around season 5 and 6 (the whole speech in Agent Afloat is supposed to be Tony talking about himself using McGee as substitute, but later, McGee is using the same arguments to explain how much he didn't like the separation. It makes me wonder how much is Tony talking about himself and how much is Tony thinking about McGee during the summer.)

And now, season 7, he's starting to realise it's more than a simple crush, but can't get something more, so trying half-heartily to date.

[beautybecks.livejournal.com]

I like your take of the Tim/Tony relationship, the speech Tony gave Ziva in Agent Afloat, I can picture him going crazy and having nothing to keep him sane except for thoughts of McGee, except that drives him even crazier because it makes him miss him more when he shouldn't even be really missing him in the first place.

The idea of Tony half-heartedly trying to date makes me smile, thank you :)

[harem-priestess.livejournal.com]

Okay. I'm supposed to be packing before we walk to Westside park before leaving for JFK. BUT, I had to add my .02.

Personally, while I think Tony could have "gone there" with other guys, he's definitely Tim-sexual. And ONLY Tim-sexual. :)

I will expand on this, possibly, once back in Cali tomorrow.

[singer-s-lament.livejournal.com]

This is such an interesting discussion so Ithought I would add my 2¢.

I'm with Subway in that I believe that Tony is just sexual; he is attracted to the person not the gender. But I don't think that he necessarily sees himself stuck on the 2.1 kids and minivan. He spends way too much time into making Timmy jealous and getting his attention. I don't think that Tim was his first male partner either.

[im-miss-barbara.livejournal.com]

I don't know about your last comment. Tony is all about how he comes over at other people, think about the suits, shiny car and everything. I think he is carefull with making a name for himselfm the gay scene probably isn't that big.

[singer-s-lament.livejournal.com]

Tony is the master of smoke and mirrors. As an excellent undercover operative (cannon), he would have no issues with presenting himself as a certain way. He only would have to keep up the 'show' upon meeting new people and then once and then throw something out a while to keep people on the right track.

For the most part, people make decisions based upon their first impression of you and keep you in the hole the peg you as. Coming off as a skirt-chasing manwhore just once seals their opinion and keeps them away from digging deeper unless something happens. It is easier for them to keep you that way because otherwise, they were wrong about you.

DNDT is not just for the military. We look at the things that we know as fact about him; military high school, high school jock, college jock, police officer, detective. As much as we tend to think differently, those professions or occupations are not something that people tend to think of for a gay man; they hold macho connotations and most people see a gay man as effeminate.

[burnphone.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure Tony would ever cover something up about himself intentionally if he had a choice, that's why, in my eyes anyway, he doesn't identify as gay till he meets Tim. The whole thing with Jeanne told us he 'couldn't live a lie', and I think that's true. Though that can be taken either way, maybe when he said that he was also thinking about the persona he always presents.

[colorguard28.livejournal.com]

I love reading all the different views on Tony - lots of different possibilities.

I think Tony is basically bi, but because of his family history he pictures relationships as with women because he has that need for the white picket fence life he didn't have as a kid. This is where I think his age comes into play. Tony's about 40, so all while he was growing up and into his 20s, it was rare or unheard of (depending on the state) for male gay couples to have children because it wasn't biologically possible (unlike lesbians who could use sperm banks) and adoption wasn't an option. So even thought that's changed in a lot of places it's recently enough that it's hardwired into his brain that to have a family, he'd have to be with a woman. Tim's enough younger that he doesn't have that particular mindset, so even though he is the settling-down, start-a-family type, he doesn't think that precludes doing so with a guy.

So that's one reason Tony presents himself as completely straight. Also, he knows in law enforcement and the military, self-IDing as gay is a bad idea on many levels. So he plays up the straight side of his life and probably thinks of himself as basically straight with the odd detour here or there.

He doesn't have much luck with long-term relationships, though at least a couple that we know of were more than a few dates. Monica, the married one, and Lt. Kim, who listed him on the herpes alert website, both seemed to be more than a few dates. He was particularly smitten with Monica, thought she was the one, until he found out she was married. So between that and his family history (angsty no matter how you write the backstory there), there are lots of landmines in his psyche.

I also think Jeanne, in many ways, is the catalyst for him and Tim because Tony got to be in a long-term relationship and since he had to make things work for the op, he had to do a lot of things he normally wouldn't be comfortable with. And he found out they weren't so bad after all. And then that goes south. And he really thought he loved Jeanne, so he needs to take his mind off of her and for him that means thinking of a guy - no chance he could start out thinking of a fantasy woman and realize she had morphed into Jeanne in his traitorous mind. In my uni, that's when he starts thinking of Tim in that way. He's always kind of wondered about Tim, ever since Abby's "Your tat is real and you don't disappoint me" comment, but since there's Rule 12, he's off limits and a safe fantasy. And then comes Leap of Faith and Tim saving him and Tony realizing he's stopped thinking of Tim as a contrast to Jeanne and is just thinking of Tim for Tim. Rule 12, etc., so he doesn't act on it. Then there's the Rivken debacle in LA while Tim's there and it gets worse once they're back in DC and then Ziva's gone and it's just them and Gibbs. And Tony realizes he wants something and he wants it with Tim and the heck with Rule 12.

[beautybecks.livejournal.com]

This is amazingly articulate and well-thought out, with the evidence and the episodes to support it. Fascinating. Thanks for taking the time to share.

[colorguard28.livejournal.com]

Thanks! I'm in the middle of writing a novel-length McNozzo fic where they get together and then angst ensues, so I've done a decent amount of pondering on the subject recently. :) The last graf is actually how I did have things play out in my universe - the rest is more me theorizing.