Tony's sexuality - Discussion

[beautybecks.livejournal.com]

Hi y'all,

Just wanted to start a little healthy discussion/debate about Tony's sexuality. Do you think he is Tim-sexual, bi-sexual, homosexual, pan-sexual etc? How do you factor his on-screen relations in regards to his sexuality, particularly Jeanne Benoit?

Personally, I see Tony as being very gay and all his talk of women is over-compensating. His infactuation with Tim has been there since the very beginning. I see him being mostly celibate and having slept with women in his past until he realised he was gay and sort of stopped the sex all together. Alas, the sexual frustration he gets from working round Tim day in and day out has driven him into the arms of a few men, but he tries to forget about that. For me, the forced relationship with Jeanne Benoit actually helped sell him as gay to me, he may have fallen in love with her eventually but I think a part of that was acting and sex, sex which he was reluctant about to begin with. It was supposed to be a fake relationship to begin with but I think that can be extended to include the fact it was fake because he is gay. Cole Porter married and loved his wife but that didn't make him any less gay.

What are your thoughts?

Comments

[burnphone.livejournal.com]

My views on Tony are slightly different. I see him as bi but I'm not convinced he knows it himself. I can imagine that he's always had feelings for men but pushed them aside. We know how much he wants his fathers approval and being gay probably wouldn't have help with that plus he likes women too. A lot. So it's not so hard to ignore anyway. He's probably decided it was all an adolescent phase and he chooses to ignore the gay porn on his hard drive.

I think his excessive womanizing (that sounds harsh, I don't mean it badly) is probably due to his confusion but I do think he truly was attracted to Jeanne and did come to love her. He was hesitant because he was worried about hurting her feelings and that's exactly why I think Tim would always have to make the first move (even if Tony has engineered it accidentally on purpose) because Tony would be too scared to risk their relationship on what might be a one time thing for him.

[rainbow-goddess.livejournal.com]

I believe that Tony thinks he is straight, and maybe tries to convince himself that he is straight. I don't think he's exclusively gay, but he definitely has some same-sex attraction going on and is at the very least bisexual. I think he appreciates beautiful women, but possibly more in an aesthetic manner rather than a sexual manner. He might try to convince himself that he wants to have sex with them, but the fact that we haven't seen him go on a second date with anyone but Jeanne -- and she was an assignment -- leads me to wonder why.

With Tim, he's probably been fighting his attraction since Day 1. He probably tells himself that it's inappropriate due to the fact that they work together, or he tells himself that he couldn't possibly be attracted to Probie/McGeek/whatever he calls him, or he tells himself that duh, Timmy is a GUY, and Tony doesn't do guys (yeah right.)

[jack-infinitude.livejournal.com]

Tony is obviously Tim-sexual. :D

But seriously, I think that Tony is bisexual, while leaning heavily to the hetero side. It's what he's comfortable with, he knows how to handle women. We're pretty uncomplicated for him so long as we don't expect too much out of him.

When it comes to Jeanne, I'm always hesitant to make any kind of pronouncement about Tony's personality/sexuality. Nothing about the relationship was real, except his love, which came about under forced circumstances. (Huh, maybe I could argue that he bonded with Jeanne out of necessity? Like Stockholm's except not as horrifying.) So anything that came out under Jeanne's influence should always be taken with a grain of salt, I think.

It's also possible that part of his reluctance with Jeanne came from his love/attraction/loyalty to Tim. If he had a little voice in the back of his head saying You're hurting Tim, you're hurting Tim, every time he bent down for a hug or a kiss, it would make sense that he was dragging his feet on prostituting himself to Jeanne. (Have I mentioned that I'm glad that Jenny is dead? Because I'm really glad that bitch is dead.)

[snowglow1275.livejournal.com]

I dislike assigning something like that in strict terms; sexuality is fluid and things change. I also dislike the term bisexual because of the inherent forced dichotomy in the term. I suppose the closest term I can come up with for Tony is pansexual. He's a live and let live kind of guy and when it comes to sex it's all good. Girls are easy and convenient for him, we know his uncle, and probably father, taught him a lot of his womanizing ways so he plays it safe and sticks to what he knows. I think it probably took a while for him to realize that he was attracted to men, as well, and that he's actually alright with that. I'm sure there was a freak out in there somewhere. As for now, he's comfortable in certain social situations and doesn't like to be uncomfortable, and he never got comfortable with the social rules involved with hitting on guys (beyond clubs and such) so he just sticks to easy one night stands. I think before Tim there probably wasn't really anyone he ever wanted for more than the one night or so. There's friends and there's sex and he was happy keeping them separate. Yeah, he wanted Tim but they had to work together he's off limits, except Tony still wants him and that confuses the fuck out of him. I think Jeanne was a kind of test drive; it was uncomfortable and unwanted at first but he found out he was capable of having a relationship. (I'm gonna go with the semi-stockholm thing, too, as far as actually being in love.) After Jeanne Tony had to sort out his feelings but in my personal canon they got together sometime around then. Tony still has trouble accepting that he wants more than sex from Tim but he's happy and he figures if it works why mess with it?

EDIT: Having said this I think its important to say I think Tony self-identifies as straight. Like any trait or title there are internalized social expectations that go along with it. To most people 'gay' is more than just a preference in sexual partners, it also allows for interpretation of behavior. True, you can be Jewish without being religious but it is assumed that you follow certain cultural mores. Same goes for being gay, bi, or straight. Calling oneself gay is likely to be reflective of a small amount of culture as well as sexuality. I cannot see Tony actively expressing himself in any way other than 'straight', regardless of his choice in partner, mostly because this is what he is comfortable with. For all his talk his personal life is likely a very stable, and elaborate, construction.

I think I'm done.

[canspy.livejournal.com]

Sexually, one of my favourite reads on Tony is that he thinks he's a big toppy alpha male, but he's intrigued by the possibility of Tim taking a bit of that control away from him for awhile. ;D

As for whether he identifies as gay or straight, I honestly don't think he's ever sat down and put a name to things. Labels have worked for him for most of his life so he's not about to reject them as too confining so he doesn't bother fiddling with them.

[subway-silence.livejournal.com]

I always liked the theory that nobody is a 100% straight or gay (Kinsey scale, I think?), and Tony is no different in my mind. You fall in love with a person, not with a gender. I'm not sure if Tony ever really, truly loved Jeanne. It was more the idea of a some what normal life, settling down, starting a family. He cared for her, but in love? I don't know. The more I think about it, the more I realise how messed up he became from that assignment. And the more I disliked how Jenny got him involved in it.

I think Tony is a pretty traditional guy when it comes to views on family and love. Not that he would dissaprove of other people's choices, but he has trouble seeing himself in a different setting than the typical man + woman = 2.1 childeren. Untill he realises that he feels something for Tim that isn't just colleagues, friends, or brotherly affection. He's probably been attracted towards guys before, but never did anything with it, because it didn't fit in with the picture he had of himself.

[im-miss-barbara.livejournal.com]

First: Tim-sexual xD Roflmao.

I don't Tony is gay, or bi, or straight or whatever. He is just Tony. When it comes to physical attraction, Tony loves everyone and everything.

When it comes to feelings things are a little bit more difficult, experience tells him that things like relations and everything never end wel. Than he gets forced in the whole Jeanne things and well, that is also one bit crap.

After the whole Jeanne fiasco Tony finds that Tim helps him trough his problems by just showing up, and after a few weeks he realizes that he is head over heels in love with him, and what scares him the most is that what he felt for Jeanne was nothing compared to what he feels for Tim. So when Jeanne shows up during internal affairs he can tell her that none of it was real.

Rigth then he realizes that what ever he feels for Tim, he can't ignore it anymore. He goes over to his house that evening and kisses him. He leaves after that, leaving the ball in Tim's court. He tries to act all cool about it the next day, but he is terrified that Tim blows his off.

Well we all now what happens next! (H-- M----- S--)

[schtroumph-c.livejournal.com]

Like jack_infinitude, I see Tony as bi leaning toward straight. He likes women, and I think he really loved Jeanne, or at least liked her a lot. I think he always wondered what would have happened if they met in another way, how many possible love stories he missed because he run away when it started being serious (an option he didn't have there). I think even today, he still has moments wondering where he would be in his life if everything in his relationship with Jeanne, from the meeting to the break-up, was lead by their own decisions and not someone else. But he'll never know, and I'm sure it still bother him.

Actually, I'd like her to come back, see her getting married or close to. It'll break his heart, but in a good way. Seeing her moving on, seeing that they weren't meant to be, seeing that he didn't hurt at the point her life is destroyed, he'll be able to heal correctly this time.

I think he had crushes on men, recognize some, denies other. I'm not sure if he did something with a man before, but if he did, it was nothing serious or big. I can actually see the interest in Gibbs, but it constantly moved between crush and father figure, and I honestly think that at some point, he consider the crush as hero worship, and getting away from it while seeing Gibbs more as a human being, keeping only the respect and the father figure.

As for his feelings for Tim, I think he was fascinated without understanding why since the first day, in two moments: one when McGee asked to talk to a woman for the investigation, saying she wasn't his type when Tony told him he wasn't allowed to ask her out, followed by being impressed when he got the news they needed (who left his job recently), and the other moment after the "I went with mom." Tony blocked on the tattoo, on the place where the tattoo was, and the implications. How many normal, boring, vanilla, boys scout guys go and get a tat on their ass just to please a girl they barely talked to on a phone?

And the fascination never left, as the need to get his attention, and to be sure McGee was laughing at his jokes, etc.... I think Tony realised he was crushing on him around season 5 and 6 (the whole speech in Agent Afloat is supposed to be Tony talking about himself using McGee as substitute, but later, McGee is using the same arguments to explain how much he didn't like the separation. It makes me wonder how much is Tony talking about himself and how much is Tony thinking about McGee during the summer.)

And now, season 7, he's starting to realise it's more than a simple crush, but can't get something more, so trying half-heartily to date.

[harem-priestess.livejournal.com]

Okay. I'm supposed to be packing before we walk to Westside park before leaving for JFK. BUT, I had to add my .02.

Personally, while I think Tony could have "gone there" with other guys, he's definitely Tim-sexual. And ONLY Tim-sexual. :)

I will expand on this, possibly, once back in Cali tomorrow.

[singer-s-lament.livejournal.com]

This is such an interesting discussion so Ithought I would add my 2¢.

I'm with Subway in that I believe that Tony is just sexual; he is attracted to the person not the gender. But I don't think that he necessarily sees himself stuck on the 2.1 kids and minivan. He spends way too much time into making Timmy jealous and getting his attention. I don't think that Tim was his first male partner either.

[colorguard28.livejournal.com]

I love reading all the different views on Tony - lots of different possibilities.

I think Tony is basically bi, but because of his family history he pictures relationships as with women because he has that need for the white picket fence life he didn't have as a kid. This is where I think his age comes into play. Tony's about 40, so all while he was growing up and into his 20s, it was rare or unheard of (depending on the state) for male gay couples to have children because it wasn't biologically possible (unlike lesbians who could use sperm banks) and adoption wasn't an option. So even thought that's changed in a lot of places it's recently enough that it's hardwired into his brain that to have a family, he'd have to be with a woman. Tim's enough younger that he doesn't have that particular mindset, so even though he is the settling-down, start-a-family type, he doesn't think that precludes doing so with a guy.

So that's one reason Tony presents himself as completely straight. Also, he knows in law enforcement and the military, self-IDing as gay is a bad idea on many levels. So he plays up the straight side of his life and probably thinks of himself as basically straight with the odd detour here or there.

He doesn't have much luck with long-term relationships, though at least a couple that we know of were more than a few dates. Monica, the married one, and Lt. Kim, who listed him on the herpes alert website, both seemed to be more than a few dates. He was particularly smitten with Monica, thought she was the one, until he found out she was married. So between that and his family history (angsty no matter how you write the backstory there), there are lots of landmines in his psyche.

I also think Jeanne, in many ways, is the catalyst for him and Tim because Tony got to be in a long-term relationship and since he had to make things work for the op, he had to do a lot of things he normally wouldn't be comfortable with. And he found out they weren't so bad after all. And then that goes south. And he really thought he loved Jeanne, so he needs to take his mind off of her and for him that means thinking of a guy - no chance he could start out thinking of a fantasy woman and realize she had morphed into Jeanne in his traitorous mind. In my uni, that's when he starts thinking of Tim in that way. He's always kind of wondered about Tim, ever since Abby's "Your tat is real and you don't disappoint me" comment, but since there's Rule 12, he's off limits and a safe fantasy. And then comes Leap of Faith and Tim saving him and Tony realizing he's stopped thinking of Tim as a contrast to Jeanne and is just thinking of Tim for Tim. Rule 12, etc., so he doesn't act on it. Then there's the Rivken debacle in LA while Tim's there and it gets worse once they're back in DC and then Ziva's gone and it's just them and Gibbs. And Tony realizes he wants something and he wants it with Tim and the heck with Rule 12.