Where does Abby fit?

[colorguard28.livejournal.com]

OK, I have a question. And I'm not trying to start a flame war, just get some understanding of a characterization.

It seems like a lot of the Tim-centric fics I read, whether McNozzo or otherwise, are more anti-Abby than NCIS fics in general. And the ones that drive me crazy tend to be slash fics with Tim, usually paired with Tony. I know since Abby/McGee are canon, at least past canon, that she has to be dealt with somehow. But why take the "Abby abuses poor Timmy horribly" route? Although obviously there are lots of great T2 fics out there where Abby is their best friend, so not everybody goes that path.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't see evil Abby (no matter how many spikes on her collar). Anybody have any thoughts on where evil/selfish Abby comes from? Or am I just too much of a McAbby fan to be able to see it even when I'm putting Tim with Tony.

Comments

[bluebrocade.livejournal.com]

My experience has been opposite. I've been devouring NCIS fic for 4 months now, mostly Tim/Tony, Gibbs/DiNozzo or gen, and I've only come across one fic (a G/D fic) that I can recall where Abby is portrayed negatively.

[colorguard28.livejournal.com]

I've run into a few, and I've learned that there are some great Tim writers I need to not read until the story is done so I don't get hooked and then find out partway through that AntiAbby shows up. :P I know a lot of them don't post certain places because they don't want to get flamed. One actually commented on a RE chapter earlier this week about that - she seemed to think I was an anti-Abby and would understand. I suggested we would have to agree to disagree.

[shetiger.livejournal.com]

I'm lucky that I haven't read those stories. I have seen people asking for Abby bashing on the fic finders community, which just boggles me. I can't ever see Abby as a threat to Tim/Tony--I definitely see her as an ally. (That's when I'm not shipping the three of them together.)

I guess the only place I see evil/selfish Abby coming from in canon (and I think it's seriously twisting canon, but, whatever) is that she does get jealous when Tim shows an interest in another woman. Or a woman shows interest in him. But them Tim will do the exact same thing with Abby. It's just sort of their thing, and I don't think it means that they're still in love with each other (although I'm fine with it if they are) or trying to control the other person. It's just a hold over from their relationship, something that they do to reaffirm that they have something special between them.

Honestly, I think Abby's a great way to get to McGee/DiNozzo. I mean, she can be supportive friend, or a giggling yenta, or the one who helps one of the guys figure out what (who) he really wants in bed. She's a lot of fun to play with, for me.

[colorguard28.livejournal.com]

The jealousy doesn't bother me - like you said, I think it's just part of their thing. I can see people who use Dog Tags as evidence having a point, but then those same people use Faith as more evidence and I don't buy that at all. I guess I'm just irked because several of them have commented or PMd me about Razor's Edge this week because they thought it was building to be their version of Abby. I'm waiting for the flames tomorrow when the final chapter is posted.

[thelonemascot.livejournal.com]

I think Abby can be selfish and child-like, but I don't think she's evil.

I think the Evil!Abby fic stem from episodes where she sort mistreats McGee, like Dog Tags for example. Dog nearly killed him and all she cared about was the dog. She even guilted and manipulated McGee into taking the dog home, despite the fact that he was scared of the dog...and rarely do animals fair well in that kind of relationship. She's also done a few other things as well, but then I think Tony can be just as mean.

I think maybe people think Abby should know better, because they dated or they're supposed to be best friends or something.

Just to note, before anyone starts accusing me anything, I actually like Abby, there's isn't anyone I dislike or hate on the show. I'm not bashing, so calm down.

[colorguard28.livejournal.com]

No, I'll buy a Dog Tags argument. I didn't like Abby in that ep either, which is one reason I rarely watch it. I'm not even sure I always see the selfish/child-like, though. Or at any rate, I don't see her as having done anything worse than Tony (attack dog CD, for example). Maybe my take is colored by having read/watched interviews with SM and PP where they talk about how much their characters love and respect each other. ::shrugs::

[gritsinmisery.livejournal.com]

Evil!Abby comes from the under-exercised imaginations of the same bad!fic writers who pull that stunt in every other fandom -- when canon gets in the way of their slashy twu-luv (and y'know, I adore the pairing when written properly or I wouldn't be a member of this comm) then proper characterization goes out the window and Cruella DeVille steps in to take its place.

I'm not sayin' Abby isn't perfectly capable of getting really, truly ticked-off and doing something incredibly wicked. Heaven knows she has both the resources and the brains to use 'em. But canonically (and for the most part fanonically, at least in the stuff I read, but then I use the back-button judiciously) the break-up was amicable and she adores both men, even if she thinks each of them can be more than a touch dense at times. I don't see her getting medieval on either of 'em without a damned good reason, which of course a twu-love!fic would never have, b/c the boys are the "good guys."

tl;dr -- No, I don't see her, either.

[colorguard28.livejournal.com]

Like Evil!Jenny? Another one that drives me batty. And yes, I use the back button and have a mental list of authors I try and avoid even if it sounds like a really awesome Tim fic. Which :P because I love Tim and I hate skipping Tim fics, but Evil!Abby always ends up ruining it for me.

[catwalksalone]

I don't think I've ever read an evil!Abby fic. But then, I only read Tim/Tony (or Tim/Tony/Abby) and occasionally gen, and even then I tend to stay safely in my little corner with writers/recs from people I know and trust. Works for me! Keeps the anti-Ziva away, too, which I also have a problem with.

And Abby doesn't have to be 'dealt with' at all. They're exes, they care about each other, they have residual jealousy issues--that's life. Abby LOVES Tony, there's no way she isn't going to be on board the Tim/Tony train even if it might take her a second or two to get over the shock (if she even IS shocked in the first place). It's not an issue that requires bringing up every time Tim has a date with someone not her. If people genuinely don't like Abby, then they can write fic that doesn't include her.

As for evil/selfish, well, she certainly knows how to manipulate to achieve her own ends, but as her ends are usually to the benefit of someone relatively powerless (a dog, a child...) it's hard to see why that's such a bad thing. And Tim is totally capable of putting his foot down--if he really didn't want to help, he wouldn't. (In Faith he says he's doing it 'for the Big Guy'. And you know what? He's a grown man, I'm inclined to believe him. Also? What does it say about Tim if he wasn't open-hearted enough to take on some of Abby's causes? Seriously, people.)

[shetiger.livejournal.com]

I just gonna sing some Bette Midler at you, k?

[colorguard28.livejournal.com]

I wasn't even going to touch on the anti-Ziva, but that's another one that bugs me. Come on, folks! One of the beauties of NCIS is it has amazingly complex characters with flaws and foibles and redeeming qualities. That's what makes it a great show and a really fun fandom to write in. It also means you can't get lazy or sloppy and just ignore things you don't like. Honestly? Razor's Edge started because my McAbby heart was intrigued by the idea of T2 this season and I wanted to figure out how Tim and Tony got together and Abby realized that particular ship had sailed. (And then Tony had a nightmare and tried to run it out and, well, things got complicated and I ended up with 42 chapters more than I planned...) They have a past, and it's fine, particularly depending on when the story is set in the series timeline, to want to address it. But don't turn them into 2D caricatures to do it!

[harem-priestess.livejournal.com]

My theory? It comes from somewhat the same place the super hostile anti-TIVA/ZIVA/CdP comes from. Abby gets "in the way" of their OTP (in the slash cases) in canon so they make her completely mean as to make the boys more sympathetic.

I haven't read A LOT of slash stories like this, but gen is RIPE with them. It seems as of late there is a lot of fic making EVERYONE evil in favor of one of the characters (and it seems 9 times out of 10 in an effort to make Tim more sympathetic). Conflict is a good thing, but the extremes doesn't make for good, in-character fic. Hell, I feel what I write is perhaps a little OOC, but I refuse to ever make someone so OOC that there is no way to justify even calling them by who they're supposed to be.

I love Abby, though there are parts of her personality that make me cringe. Those parts are few and far between, and I'm pretty sure I cringe because I recognize those aspects as being ones I share with her. But the idea of making her evil or super manipulative is unfair and, again, really lazy.

(And now I'm off to read the next RE chapter and DtS! Yippeee!

[beautybecks.livejournal.com]

There are times I love Abby, other times I want to force her to be more considerate. Like when Gibbs was in a coma and she implied Ziva didn't have emotions. Ziva was almost crying!

I don't like the way she treats Tim on the show. If you watch How I Met Your Mother you'll know what I mean when I say she keeps a lot of men on the hook.

Also, I do think Tim can have bouts of low self-esteem, can be weak-willed and in some instances I doubt he's even aware of his own will, often putting others first, especially his sister.

I remember a scene where Gibbs has to tell her that he's not a toy, although I think she often treats him as such. She seems to think she owns him, like forcing him to fix her equipment. If he tries and make a joke (true, sometimes it's in bad taste) she can glare at him and pretends to be upset with him (if she was genuinely upset I would understand but it comes off more as an act to make him feel bad). He is always the one who is roped into seeing her friends' concerts when Ziva and Tony are allowed to make up lame excuses.

Personally, a very shallow reason is that I'm a Gibbs/Tim slasher and most of the instances we've had of Gibbs punishing Tim is because he's been oblivious when she was in danger. That's not the only reason though.

There are times Abby acts like she can do anything and get away with it just because it's her. Like in S02E04: McGee is rewiring her hot box when Gibbs walks in. Abby tells Gibbs that Ducky is so grouchy he'd probably give Gibbs a run for his money. Tim is amazed because he knows if he said that to Gibbs he'd been seeing stars. "That is the advantage of being me." She smiles, before ordering Tim, "Now get back down there." (y'know, re-wiring her hot box)

There are times I love Abby, when she's all hugs and playing nicely. However, the way she treated McGee in Dog Tags was so single-minded. She chose the dog over McGee. That's can't be good for a guy's self-esteem. Other times too, like Damon Werth, she pre-judged him but in other episodes she is shown to have an open mind.

There doesn't seem to be a middle ground with Abby and it confuses the hell out of me and I think it would be confusing for Tim too. When she's nice she's the best thing in the world, but if for some reason she decides to be mean... *shudder*

Sorry for the long rant. It's not that I hate Abby, I don't. I just don't think she's as innocent as she sometimes pretends to be.

[jack-infinitude.livejournal.com]

This. This, so fucking much. I like Abby, but I hate hate hate the way she can mistreat McGee, and no one will give a shit. Like his feelings don't matter, like he doesn't matter as a person, except as her plaything. Most of the time I can tolerate Abby just fine, but...well, you summed it up very well, Becks. Very well indeed. *clap*

[schtroumph-c.livejournal.com]

Count me with the lucky one who never saw a evil!Abby fic. I mostly stay in the gen, Tony/McGee, Tony/Abby/McGee side of fics, and she's was always written as, well, Abby.

Even in canon I don't mind McGee and Abby's jealousy because for me, they're BFF who love each other and want to be sure their ex is with someone good enough for them. Last examples: Jules, destroyed evidences, Abby didn't like her but still encourage Tim. Amanda, nothing bad against her, Abby didn't go the jealousy road like usual. Eric, nothing too bad against him, Tim didn't care. Susan, stalkerish and stole files, Abby had good reason to be worried. Alejandro, Tim mostly teased and started being bothered when Alejandro keep ignoring him when they were in Mexico.

I can't see Abby being furious if Tony and McGee get together, unless it's because they didn't trust her with the news and hid it from her. Or didn't invite her :D. She's most likely to warn one, then the other of a world of pain if one hurt the other, seeing she loves them both in a different way.

For what it worth, it's the same thing with Ziva. After all, she's always smiling and looking interested when the things get slashy between the guys. I could see her being disappointed, but not "Arrgh, Ziva Kills!".

Making Abby evil is one of the strange things always present in every fandoms. Somehow, people can't resist turning the happy character into something dark. Like emo Carebears. And some people just don't like optimistic characters.

[jack-infinitude.livejournal.com]

I agree 100% that Abby isn't evil, and that having an anti-Abby story doesn't really make sense. There are definitely situations where she can be empty headed, thoughtless, and even downright selfish, but a situation where Tim could be romantically happy definitely wouldn't be one of them. I have my issues with Abby, but this definitely isn't one them.

[harem-priestess.livejournal.com]

Exactly. See, if I let myself, I'd have MASSIVE issues with Tony. I've always thought that if I knew Tony in real life I'd totally like him and want to hang out, but I'd also hit him a lot like Kate did, and I'd probably find ways to superglue him to things. But to make him such an asshole like some people do? That just doesn't make sense. He's got a good heart, like Abby. It's just he's a jackass, where Abby's sometimes a bit too immature.

God I love that icon :)

[justhuman.livejournal.com]

This is an an unfortunate phenomenon in all fandoms, but especially slash fandom. The female character that gets in the way of the author's preferred pairing gets demonized.

In SG-1 fandom, there are frequent requests for Samantha Carter bashing fics

In Buffy fandom, there was frequent Buffy-bashing in the Angel/Willow stories.

The saddest fact is that the fic reading/writing community is mostly women and it's the female characters that get bashed.

[subway-silence.livejournal.com]

The saddest fact is that the fic reading/writing community is mostly women and it's the female characters that get bashed.

Amen.

Women do not even need men to keep them down. We do a pretty good job of it ourselves. :/

[sarkywoman.livejournal.com]

I personally believe all the characters have flaws. None are perfect. Abby's flaws, in my opinion, are her immaturity and yes, her self-centredness. She does care a lot about other people, but she always expects them to make her feel better and demands they act how she expects them to act. Yes, she's lovable and perky and cute as a button, but her childishness does sometimes mean that she's rude to other characters.

[qzee.livejournal.com]

I don't see purposely!evil!Abby at all. Sure, she sometimes comes off as childish, occasionally selfish, and occasionally "I can so take advantage of McGee here, because he's so puppyish and we're BFF! and I can use my puppy eyes"! But, if you followed me around all the time you'd occasionally catch me being childish, selfish, taking advantage of someone's good nature, etc.

There have been times when Abby has been jealous of McGee's relationship (the one that comes to mind readily was that Erin chick who died and Tim was the one who insisted they take her seriously, but that was shortly after the breakup so...). There have been times when Tim has been jealous of one of Abby's relationships/over protective. There have been times when they're both acting badly. But that's what makes them awesome characters. They aren't perfect.

I admit to having read a few fics, where Abby, in her cluelessness/or wanting to believe the good in everyone, does something that unfortunately has bad results and she is called to answer for it. (most notably http://nfacommunity.com/viewstory.php?sid=1984&textsize=0&chapter=24 and the chapters following). In the stories, she didn't mean to bring harm to McGee BUT did something that inadvertently hurt him. I try not to read fics where any of the team are evil, but I will read a fic where one of the team members inadvertently causes/caused harm to another, because mistakes happen.

I like to think Abby would be more of a matchmaker/yenta when it comes to Tim/Tony or Tim/Gibbs. That she'd be supportive and maybe a little sad that she couldn't be what Tim needed. A bit wistful that he found love before she did. But she'd be supportive too, because in spite of - or due to - their differences, they are BFF! They'll occasionally fall out, tick each other off, bicker, compete for attention, be jealous of each other, but in the end, they'll always be BFF! At least, that's how I see it.

[redvelvetribbon.livejournal.com]

Hum I don't think I have ever read an EVIl Abby fic. Where she does something unthinking sure but not where she has plotted to destroy.
I don't dislike any of the characters and have actually written McAbby myself.(Actually I am a McGee fan and have paired him with everyone included Jenny Sheppard. Oh yet to do a Palmer fic but other than that I think i have everyone else covered over the last couple of years I have been writting)
I do find Abby to be self centered and childish at times but to balance that out McGee if he took offense at how he was being treated should stand up for himself and say no. His character is developing as the series go along so their relationshop is changing. He is becoming more confident. Gibbs is Abbys enabler and turns a blind eye to certain behaviour but thats the point of the team in a way. They all have their weird things that the rest of the team just rolls there eyes at. The team is gloriously broken but together they compensate for their hurts/strengths and weaknesses which is why they are the best. Split them up and it doesn't work in the same way.
When I did my Gibbs/McGee mult chapter I had Abby as supportive and Tony as initially freaked out. Actually when I did my Tony/Tim, Abby was the one that got them to sit down together and stop dancing around each other so it just depends writer to writer how you see them and what your bias is I suppose.

[redvelvetribbon.livejournal.com]

Ok I just want to take the opportunity to say a big Horrahh to the fact that there is so much more Tim plus anyone fic out there. Even case fics. And to have discussions like this and so many people participate - pro Abby, anti this, whatever. Its fantastic to have pairings considered and McGee being acknowledged. Haven't been writing as much lately as I used too (to much real life shit going on) but when i first started it was so hard to find ANY decent stories with Tim as a main character in them. I wrote Tim topping Tony and got ??? and even some abuse. And then Gibbs and McGee I had some woman laughing her ass off and sending me email after email so I nearly stopped going to that site. Yeah so I have written 40 chapters of McGee and a vampire. Some people enjoyed it. Quite a few actually.There was lots of Abby and co too.

So anyway i ramble. I just ...wipes tear from my eye....yahhhhh for open mindeness...and intellectual discussion...and consideration of ALL characters where possible. And McGee of course :)

[jack-infinitude.livejournal.com]

OMG hai gurl!

When I first wandered into the fandom, I definitely saw what you did -- that there was hardly any fic about Tim. I think in part that's because everyone saw McGee as more of a joke than a character. No one took him very seriously. But now that his fanbase has grown, a lot more fic has appeared. :D

That sucks about the abuse you got just for posting something different. D:

Psst, you still interested in betaing the Gibbs/McGee drunk fic?

[dgcatanisiri.livejournal.com]

I've never encountered this 'evilAbby' thing before, and if I did, I would hit the back button so fast... It's horribly out of character for her, IMO. Ultimately, Abby wants those closest to her to be happy, and if any of her teammates paired up, rule 12 be damned, she would literally be GLOWING with excitement. And, also, I am of the opinion that she would TOTALLY try and get Tony and Tim to let her watch as they get it on (and if either balked, turn it into a joke).

But the evilAbby thing probably has its basis in badfic writing of 'get rid of the foul heterosexuality so that boykissing may commence!' and ignores one of the key concepts about writing fanfiction - you're writing characters that weren't created just when you need them but have TV canon personalities, beliefs, and hangups that need to be taken into consideration. Making Abby into a controlling manipulative witch with Tony being Tim's knight in shining armor makes for a more 'exciting' story in these 'writer's' opinions than having Tony and/or Tim struggle with understanding why they're interested in the other, because these writers aren't looking at the psychology of the characters, they just want them making out.

[subway-silence.livejournal.com]

I am very carefull with reading fanfictions of authors I don't know that much of, so I've never read an evil-Abby story either. If I had come across one, I would have hit the back-button very fast.

I think people write evil-Abby, or evil-Anyone fic, because they want to make their favourite couple/character look better by comparison. Or, to make very obviously why the other -ship would be so, so, bad for the other person. :eyeroll:

[harem-priestess.livejournal.com]

Why can't I be this succinct?

[darkdani.livejournal.com]

I don't THINK I've ever read one tbh. It's generally more bad!fics u find that in and if I get a couple of sentences in and I realise it's a bad fic, I tend to press back so much it goes back too far =D

I Used to love Abby, she used to be my favourite character when I first started watching. I used to read a lot of McAbby fics that made her out to be, frankly, some sort of angel-that could do no wrong, which at the time didn't bother me at all.

Nowadays I tend to avoid most fics that are Abby-centric. This is partly because of some of the ways she's been shown in canon, but also because in some fics I've read I've found her extremely annoying. For example when she is overly dramatic, I understand she can slightly dramatic in canon, but sometimes people write her dramatic-ness(??) to the point that it get's extremely annoying, and completely ruins the story for me. I don't mind fics were she is displayed as slightly mean or evil, as long as it's not WAYY over the top, or badly written. I however won't be able to read fics were she's suddenly become a complete and utter bitch. Despite how annoying I find her now, I would never believe that she would act like that.

As for Abby in Tim/Tony fics (or even Tim/Gibbs fics) Post of the stories I read, she's either Shipping them in a big way, or she's hurt to begin with, but then sees that they're meant to be together and moves on. (R. Edge) If I'm honest I prefer when she's a bit hurt to begin with but see's he's better off, mainly cause it perhaps shows she's slightly more mature.

So yeh, I'm not an Abby-basher, I just have recently found her quite annoying. I wouldn't read a Abby-centric fic then completely slate it, I just avoid them because I know I wouldn't enjoy it. But yeh...I'll just pop off now...Bye!! =D x

[the-bleue.livejournal.com]

Just to make myself clear, I don't think I ever red a Abby-bashing fic. I don't understand how people can makes Abby that OOC anyway. I mean, we all know that Abby is special, but finally, it's NCIS we're talking about all the characters are special. So why her more than someone else ? Because we're only talking about the McNozzo fics. In that case, Abby could (COULD) be an obstacle (not sure about that word) on that pairing if it's the OTP of the author. And Abby can be selfish, or childish, but it's part of her in the show, people shouldn't push it more than that. The thing is those authors should see in her an ally, not an enemy. I can easily see her very supportive with Tony and McGee... or playing matchmakers with them if she thinks they "should be together for months but just can't make a move"... I can't see her evil.

A bit disappointed if she hadn't noticed the changement between them ? No problem. A bit sad with the realisation that no, she can't have Tim anymore even if she wants to ? Yes. Evil ? I just can't. It's just too OOC.

Hoping it makes sense for you, because it does for me. But everything makes sense for me at 1 a.m while listening Crystal Castles. (ho yeah and please, excuse my mistakes... I'm french and it's 1 a.m...)

[mjg021182.livejournal.com]

Just like to say, thankyou for posting this in the first place, and I thoroughly enjoyed reading everybody's differing opinions on the subject.

I can understand everyone's differing perspectives, and as some have already expressed, I am inclined to take a middle of the road perspective on the subject. (Yeah yeah I know, fencesitter! Lol)

One thing I would say about Abby, I found her rather more interesting as a character in the early couple of seasons than in the subsequent seasons, although in season 7 she seems to be coming more to the middle of the two very polar Abby personalities, so yay.

Early on, she was more funky, a bit tomboyish and didn't really wear skirts much, a bit more low key in her personality,a bit angsty, more true to her gothness.

In later seasons, she's way more bubbly, "the happiest Goth you'll ever meet", VERY girly, way more huggy, bouncybouncy, pushy and pouty. Nothing wrong with that, I just found her earlier self more interesting personally. I do like both, really I do!

Which is why I love season 7 Abby the best. The pendulum has swung a little back more to the middle. She's still more of the girly version, but there's a bit more edge to her again, and I found her a bit less annoying too.

Not sure if all of that is really relevant to this discussion though, but I did notice some of the feelings about how Abby is portrayed re Tim/Tony is rather related to how people perceive her character in general. Which, depending on where you picked up watching the show, could really make all the difference.

mj

[colorguard28.livejournal.com]

I think your last sentence really hits on a lot of the differences among shippers. As the characters have grown and changed over the seasons, the dynamics between pretty much every combination of characters has changed along with that. So depending on when people started watching, the logical ships are different than the ones if you start watching at a different point in time. For example, I can easily see Tibbs as a pairing in early seasons, but later seasons are much more father/son. Same with Gabby. And depending on which ships seem logical, that can also affect how each character comes across - which can affect opinions of each character's motivations.